Episode 6 Transcript – Layla O’Mara

Our guest today is the lovely Layla Amara who joins us from Wicklow in Ireland, where she lives with her husband and three children. Today, we talk about Layla's mothering experiences after the birth of her three children and how. Were in stark contrast to one another Nala's first two children were born in Germany where she had a very supportive postpartum period and was very supported by a midwife coming in and how the culture around that postpartum is so different

 Layla shares the experience of her third child who was in the NICU after he was born and then the experience after that, whereby she. Didn't rest after he was born, she felt that she couldn't stop.

And she talks about that superwoman addiction of having to do everything, not being able to stop talks about all the things that she did, painting her daughter's bedroom and the particular story about moving. All this manure in her garden with a really young baby strapped to her.

And I think pretty much, all of us, can resonate with this story of not being able to stop, not being able to slow down, not being able to rest. Partly maybe because we are wired or partly because we feel that we haven't earned the rest and we can't rest and that we need to be productive.

Layla beautifully describes how she now acknowledges that she needs to slow down. She needs to listen to herself  and how she does that and how she's really softened into who she is as a mother and also prioritizing her own needs. And what mothering looks like for her today, which is.

Start contrast to that mother of three children who was overwhelmed and burnt out. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Layla. Let's get started.

Thank you so much for joining me today. Hi, Sam. Pleasure to be here.

It's great to have you, so we are going to dive into Layla's stories of early motherhood. We're going to dive into your experience of becoming a mother for the first time to your now 10 year old. So could you tell us a bit about that and how That transition was for you? Sure. Yeah, 10 years. It's amazing how quickly that ends up going in in many ways. But I can't imagine myself being the person I was before at the same time. So it's one of those interesting ones, isn't it? But yeah, I had a, a journey too conceiving, I suppose, in, in the first place.

So it was I'd been diagnosed with very large fibroids a couple of years before I conceived my son and actually before I'd even met my partner. So I always knew it was gonna be a challenge.  To conceive and was told it was kind of 50 50, whether I would be able to, or not. So I, I share that because I suppose it was this thing that I always really wanted and knew it would be kind of a, a battle to, to, to manage.

Which I know is something that many of us, you know, go through in, in one form or another. So when I did conceive and when that pregnancy did go well, that was as far as I thought, you know, that was as far. You know, all of that energy and attention, that's where it all went. And I didn't have any ideas about motherhood other than that, than that.

I'd always wanted it. And I presumed I was going to love it. And. I suppose. Yeah. All of the prep I did, I did extraordinary levels of prep about buggies, amazing Excel spreadsheets. I had, you know, all of this energy and effort preparing for this moment. And then when it came, you know, it was this huge.

Surge of love and all of that thing that we have, you know, but hand in hand with that, that was a huge sense of loss of who I was and a real inability to be able to express it. I remember really clearly one moment with my husband, he was going back to work after about two weeks and we were living abroad in, in Berlin, in, in Germany.

And I was so furious with him for, for going back to work. Even though it was logical and it was planned and all the logical things were boxes were ticked, but the fact that I felt completely trapped by being at home and not being able to leave or have a shower or go to the Lou without this baby.

But also if you said, will I take the baby? I would've said absolutely not. I want to be here with. Perfect creature. But felt this huge pull in both directions. And I remember having this moment with my husband where I couldn't even articulate it. I was. Furious and completely looking back now, it's like one of those animals in, you know, in the wilds that are completely terrified and trying to protect themselves and so lash out or whatever.

So yeah, I remember that really clearly just. And now knowing what I know and what, you know, through our training and our studies and our, our, our work with mares. I have a language and I have a framework around that, but at the time, I, I really didn't and really felt that huge. Split and, and not knowing things I thought would be really important to me.

Weren't and things that were suddenly hugely important that had never been important to me before. And. Yeah, I, I didn't have the, I really didn't have the ability to, to work out what the hell was going on if, if I'm really honest. So yeah, that, that was the beginning of it. And then not, it was so wanted, he was so wanted this, this little boy.

So feeling incredibly guilty for feeling anything other than. Fantastic love for, for him. So yeah, I guess that was . That was the beginning of it all 10 years ago. Oh, gosh, thank you for describing that so beautifully because yeah, I, I, I definitely resonate with a lot of that and I think the listeners probably will as well.

And I just want to come back to a couple of things you said there, when you talked about a huge sense of loss, is that something looking back now, you recognize that you felt or were you able to kind of understand at the time or how did it manifest itself? That sense of loss. Were you able to articulate that part of it? I don't know if I would've been able to articulate it. Very succinctly I don't, I wasn't able to articulate that very succinctly or clearly at the time. But there's, there's a little cartoon sketch drawing that we had on our wall. That somebody, a good friend of my husbands had given to him.

And it was always on our wall wherever we went. And it's just a picture of a, a little cartoon man in a boat. And he's sitting there. Steering or whatever you do with the, with an or rowing away,  you don't steer rowing away in this little boat and around him, the whole sea is completely a massive storm and these huge waves and this tiny little boat.

And I remember looking at that image and. Really identifying with that. And just thinking, that's what I feel like. I feel completely at sea and completely isolated, and I can't leave this boat. I'm stuck on this boat. I can't step out of, of this space. So I remember having that thought. I also remember we lived in, in Berlin and it was winter moving.

Spring, my son was born in late in, in December early December. And we had a balcony that had a tree beside it. And I remember there was this mother bird, I dunno, what, what it was a, a Starling or something. And she was feeding her babies in the nest. And I wa I used to bring my son outside cuz he'd calmed down.

He was a really Colicky baby, but you can down in the cold. So we would go and stand on the balcony. Remember looking at this mother bird, getting more and more harried as she went in and out feeding and you know, the, the feathers would be sticking out all over the place and she just looked more and more of a mess over whatever period of weeks as she fed these birds.

Little baby birds constantly. And I remember too really kind of going I'm with you there. You know, I really felt her growing kind of a sense of abandon of herself. So I did have those moments, but I think if I sat down, you asked me that question, I'd say, no, I want to be here. This is brilliant. This is perfect.

You know, all is fine. So yeah. Good question. Mm-hmm I lo I, I love the The two things to talk about there in the boat feeling really at sea. So many people have described that to me. So many mothers that I've spoken to, that's been a really similar analogy that they've used that real feeling of being lost at sea.

And lots of storms around them.  

 So just to paint the picture a little bit more about that time, where you own Germany, because I think this is important.

Just to touch on here, to understand actually the postpartum care in Germany is quite different to, to the care that you have in Ireland. I think we have similar, or maybe let's call it lack of postpartum care in England as well. So Yeah. Just take us through that a bit more.

Mm. Yeah. So as I said, I went into my first pregnancy with very little knowledge compared to what I have now in terms of a postpartum, I didn't know what that was, but the system there supports you and kind of hands you a. A support after, after birth and a, a cultural expectation of rest as well, which I think is really key.

Cuz we can be handed all the support we want. But if, if the pressure is there to be, other than that, I think, you know, we don't accept it anyway. But so there is a period of time after birth in, in Germany called vCAN bed, which is weeks in bed and that's a four. Period of time where you're really expected to deeply, deeply rest.

And so in order to do that, you need support. And so the health insurance, public and private health insurance provide you with a Bama, which is a midwife. Who is there very much to support you after birth? And she's been there with you through your pregnancy and sometimes in the birthing room as well with you.

So she visits you every day for the first five days, the first week, and then. Intermittently. And as often as you need for actually as long as you breastfeed, but for really, you know, that first month is, is where the, the crux of the support lies. And just, I guess in many ways she gives you permission to rest.

And she'll send you back to bed. If she feels you're pushing it too much, and she bring you tea to help with your milk supply, or she'll give you a, a, a, a, you know, a stomach stomach massage to help your organs fall back into place, or, you know, help you with latch or whatever it is that you need. And she'll check up on the baby and everything as well, but her primary purpose is to be there for you.

And then everybody around, you knows you're doing your welcome bed. So everybody knows that you won't be entertaining. You won't be leav in the house. You will need the bins taken out. You will need food brought to you. And so that's what your community does for you. And then you do for others. And so I benefited from that enormously During my I had two of my babies in, in Berlin.

So I unbeknownst to myself, had a huge amount of support and didn't really know how important it was until later really, and had other experiences. So even though I didn't know what was happening to me, even though I had all of this kind of irate turmoil of who am I and why am I shifting and why am I changing?

I had a baseline level of resilience, I think because I had been supported in, in recovering, you know, physically recovering my nervous system, recovering, you know, just from, from pregnancy and birth. And that really impacted me on every level on a mental health level as well. I, I know now looking. So yeah, that was the experience I had in, in Berlin.

With the first two we then came back to, to Ireland for baby number three. I was pregnant when we moved back and had a. Very complicated pregnancy and a premature baby and no support, really. It was very much had incredible support while pregnant. And I was hospitalized for 93 days during my, at the end of my pregnancy, amazing healthcare on the public system in Ireland.

And then the baby was born and I was no longer in danger.  I, I, there was no more support there. Bar two kind of checkups, and I really noticed. The difference in myself without that one safety net there you know, physically a lot more kidney infections and mastitis and all those things that so many of us experience and also then just much higher levels of anxiety and mood swings and you know, all of that.

So yeah, and I really do now looking back, put that down to that lack. Having that support after after birth. And I guess that was really what was the catalyst for me moving into to the work that I do now, seeing that huge difference. Gosh. Yeah. Wow. It's really incredible. Possibly isn't the right word, but it's, it's really incredible.

Just. For for you actually to see the difference between the two, that real deep rest that you were able to have and the support and the cultural expectation it's was there for you to rest. And everybody knew that you were doing it. And then to come back to Ireland and the difference was stuck and actually noticing it in yourself, how, how that support really, really helps you with your first two.

And to actually be able  to show the difference because most people wouldn't know the two different experiences. So it's really interesting to hear from you how the two experiences made the difference. And before we just come on to there on after for, for your third baby I just wanna come back to the care that you had from.

The midwife in, in Germany, and you talk about the sort of physical help that she gives you but was there much support in terms of talking about your emotional state or what happens to you when you become a mother? Or was it more about the kind of physical.

Rest and recovery. Good question. I think that was the piece of the puzzle that was missing to a degree, for sure. There's no discussion of, you know, you're going through a transformation here and you are going to feel, you know, very different in who you are and, you know, going, you're going to go through this shift.

I think for me though, that the. The most important part of that care was having another woman in the room to support and witness and be there. And I could be as raw. I felt very comfortable with her as raw and vulnerable as I needed to be in that space so that I think filled. Space to a degree. But for me, the, I, I knew that I didn't know that something was missing.

I now now know looking back, but I still felt like that little person in a boat in, in, you know, at sea But I had a resilience because I had that support and that care and the acknowledge, I think it was also the acknowledgement of what you have just done and how deserving you are of care afterwards, you know?

So yeah, we can have all the teas in China, you know, we can have all those broths and we can have massages and all these things that I've shared and I teach. But actually we can have very few of those and have another person sit with us and witness it and say, you know, I'm here to, to, to look after you and to support you and witness you and it's worth it's weighting gold.

So yeah, it, it, wasn't perfect in terms of that, but it certainly went a long way. Mm-hmm  but yeah, if that had been there too, why you, yeah, yeah. Imagine. Yeah, the two words that you said that really just stood out to me just being witnessed and the acknowledgement of what you'd been through.

It's such a huge, huge thing. It's not acknowledged. We're not witnessed. It's not honored. And just the difference that that made of that, that care that you got and how differently you felt about yourself and that recovery time. So let's jump forward to the birth of your, your son in Ireland.

So this was four years ago. Hmm. Just talk to us about the, cause you said that the pregnancy care that you got was really good and you were in hospital for a bed rest for 90 odd day. So what then happened? Whether it was the birth or just immediately after the birth or the care or the lack of care and how that impacted on you and how you felt about that time in your life?

Mm, yeah, it was a, a crazy time. For many reasons. We moved back. To Ireland lock stock and barrel. After, you know, eight years in abroad with two young kids pregnant with a third and within two weeks, I was in hospital with really heavy bleeding and stayed there. Then for the three months of remaining three months of my pregnancy.

So it. I was already very at sea. You know, I had didn't, I'd been in my house since the Monday and I went into hospital on the Friday. And so that was, you know, it was very, I, you know, when I moved back after having given birth, I'd spent more time in my hospital bed than I had in my house, you know, it was, so it was very at sea in that sense you know, are, you know, unrooted , I started having contractions eventually at 32 weeks. So I held on a long time. And so he was delivered by, C-section and then in, you know, in, in a NICU ward for about a month. So I had this great care for those 90 days, and it was really about making sure that we kept that baby in and that I was, you know, a real priority within that care.

But I would say within three or I would say almost immediately, once that baby came out of me, I felt a difference in how I was cared for. You know, the, the baby was taken off to, to go to, you know, be, be looked after and. Once I was no longer in danger and this is because people, you know, staff are, are way overstretched and all of that.

And there has to be priorities, you know? And so I was very low down that priority list and was more or less left to my own devices. And. I really needed an awful lot of support at that time. Physically, but also just emotionally and, you know there was nothing there. There was really, really nothing there.

And yeah, once we got home, In terms of as assist, I was used to assistant where there was a midwife and she would come and she was there and that was it. And there was a public health nurse who came once and weighed the baby. And that was it. And, you know, you were. Expected or I had to go in, you know, every day to, to my baby in a NICU ward with having had, this is not, this is the story of everybody who experiences this.

I'm not unusual in this, you know, traveling in and out, pumping all night, going in, sitting, you know, in a NICU ward, just having had major abdominal surgery there being no resources, no, occasionally a midwife would say there's an extra dinner. Do you want to go down and have it in. Back and ward somewhere, you know, and there you just weren't a priority in terms of, of, of care and.

I just needed to be looked after and I needed somebody to witness me and I needed somebody to tell me to not unpack all the boxes of books in my sitting room, you know, three days after I got home and to get into bed, but I didn't want to lie in bed cause I didn't have my baby. And I was in this adrenaline filled fighter flights, high state of, you know, anxiety looking back and.

I needed somebody to say, get into that bed and bring you a cup of tea. It's gonna be okay. And that just wasn't there. And. I know that it isn't there for, so, so, so, so many of us as women going through that, so I tell this story, knowing it's not an unusual one, unfortunately. Mm. But the impact of that I think was, was huge then going forward on my physical health and on all kinds of, you know kind of mental and emotional.

Stability, you know? So yeah, it was, it was a big moment, I think for me, in terms of realizing that this is not the way that it's meant to be, it's not the way that it should be. And then speaking to lots of female friends here in Ireland and realizing they're all going through a form of this and don't know any other experience.

Mm. So I think. It was such a blessing. Having had that experience of both, because it made me say, say, okay, this, it can be other than this. And it's not meant to be only just this this way. And I'm very, very grateful for having had that. Mm gosh. What a contrast of those two experiences and just knowing that you needed.

That help and support and it wasn't there. And some you wanting somebody to look after you. Cause that, that is how you feel. Isn't it? When, you have a baby, that vulnerability is there and you, you need someone to mother you, or look after you. And just knowing that it should have been there as well from what you had in Germany and exactly, as you said, it's just sadly. Too common. This is actually the normal experience in, in, I know in the UK. And, and I know in the majority of other Western countries, it's sadly very, very common and then sets us up for the difficulties that that can continue on from that in, in many different ways.

So, so following on from that your son was in the NICU. You were going backwards and forwards between your house and his, and, and how did that period of time continue on for you? Yeah, I think at the time, you know, I don't think I probably, I didn't articulate that so clearly, but I think at the time I, I, I didn't even, I think deep down, I knew.

I really badly wanted somebody to look after me, but on the surface I was in like superwoman mode. Right. I was like picking my kids up from school and, you know, making lunches and making sure I was there for them and going in and out to it, to the baby and like painting my daughter's bedroom walls.  like, Doing vegetable patches and like crazy, crazy, crazy level of activity and work.

And I could not stop. I could not stop. And I think it was this sense of, I need to keep going to keep all of this together and it's that, you know, fight or flight space that, that so many of us end up in and Yeah. I, I think that continued, you know, that that was the state, my nervous system was in. And so when the baby came home, I remember the next morning I was like, I don't have to go anywhere now.

I, you know, I can just be here and I can, let's start the postpartum now and all this stuff that I told myself, but I was up an hour later, you know, putting on a wash and sweeping the floor and, you know, I, I just couldn. My nervous system would not switch off and I couldn't rest. So yeah, that continued and I would say continued for a very long time, like years of, of just keeping going, you know, keeping going.

Wow. And Yeah. It, it, it, it's, it's a hard one to, to, to break in many ways because our society tells us aren't you brilliant when you're doing that?  yeah. You know, you get praised for that. You know, everybody's really impressed with the vegetable patch and the newly painted. How do you do it all?

And yeah, I dunno how you do it all and yeah. Yeah. But very frustrated and very angry and very snappy and very irritable and, you know, wound up at the same time for sure. And I think that's where it showed, you know? So yeah, it, it didn't stop once the, the circumstances that were causing it stopped.

 So that continued on  you said you continued for several years in this superwoman doing all the things, but actually feeling very irritable and snappy as you said, so. How did you, cuz I know from your stories and I know from you that that's certain not how you are now.

Was there a catalyst, a moment or a period of time where you made the conscious choice that you wanted it to change or did it change in a more organic way? I am not completely Zen all the time.  still  well, yeah, no, no, but I'm certainly a different person.

But I think there was a number of things that have shifted for me from my experiences of this kind of dual postpartum, you know, in, in Ireland and Germany. I went searching for cuz I, you know, looking to find, okay, why is this system in Germany? And does it exist anywhere else in the world?

And so it was a real, I was really driven to, to find some answers to that which led me to train as a. Postpartum doula, to be honest, never really with it in mind to work one to one with one as one. Because I'd other one to one work that I did as an acupuncturist, but very much to learn about how this support system can, can impact us and to share that with, with other women.

So I, I did that. I think, and the process of studying that and learning that was very kind of reverse engineering healing for me of, of kind of learning the wise, you know, Why I would've felt like that understanding what was, you know, going through my, what my body was going through, you know, hormonally, physically, my brain changing all of that stuff.

It was so helpful to me to, to, to learn that and to understand it. So that's been one part of it and allowing forgiveness in to that space. And then for me on discovering the word ENCE and being given a language to describe my experiences, to describe myself 10 years ago and to say, this is what it was for me.

And to have that fluency around that has been Game changing completely for me. And then with that under, for me, understanding mares in a kind of a bigger. A bigger picture in a way and understanding it as this, the way I look on it anyway, as this sort of Rite of passage or this pin place, this sort of gateway, this threshold space where we transform from, you know, one version of ourselves.

Into another and seeing other moments and other gateways in my life then as well, and understanding that as a, that we're not on this rat race, that we're not in this hamster wheel, that there's these moments of give these moments of retreat reading the heroin's journey by Maureen Murdoch and understanding mare as a heroines journey.

And that we go into these. Deep retreat, dark Y kind of feminine spaces at times. And that it's not a negative has been really helpful to me and listening to my own body, I think has been I've had a big journey with my own body  and. That's been hugely helpful, I think to yeah, understanding what I was experiencing, emotionally somatically, all of that.

And then kind of following its lead.  Oh, wow.  You describe that really beautifully. And, taking us back to learning about all these concepts. And sometimes I get feedback of,  why do we have to kind of learn?

And I put it in vet coms, learn about motherhood.  In the kind of formal ways that you can learn about, and obviously you learn about it through your mothering work, but it's the societal concepts of motherhood and the pressures that we live in today and how that can heal us because we don't mother in a vacuum.

We mother in the societal context and understanding that, and just the way that, healed. Your journey and, your experience even right back to your first, when you had that great postpartum experience being held and rested, but actually just how much you felt that, transition and like you said,  you didn't know who you were anymore.

But you really, really felt it. So I, just love the way that you described that journey and how understanding then about mares and the journey becoming women opened up so many other avenues for you and understandings of your life. And like you said, the gateways

so thank you for sharing that. So. Now thinking back to, after your third  being the superwoman and doing all the things and doing everything and how differently does motherhood look for you now compared to after  those years after your son was born and doing all the things.

Mm, you touched on something there that I think really is the core of the answer. And it's that difference when you say learning in inverted comments about motherhood and you know, in many ways, no, you can't, you know, it's a lived experience, but for me, understanding the difference. Between, you know, there's different ways of phrasing it, but one is, you know, motherhood versus mothering and motherhood being the societal constructs that we, that we, you know, the messaging around motherhood, you know, the, the PR around it.

You know that what is a good mother, you know, that we should be always happy. We sh you know, to, to, to look after our children to turn up, to, to put others before ourselves, to be selfless, to be, you know, together, to be on time to be, you know, I could go on and on and on all of that messaging that we hear, we see.

And I heard and saw them didn't agree with them, but did not realize how ingrained they were in me anyway, you know, and all of those shoulds, I should be doing this. I should be doing that. For me, it was very much about. Being how important it was to be really present, to be always there for them to be all of that.

But at the same time, I had a huge desire to prove myself to the world, you know, and to, you know, financially be completely independent to be you know, recognized even though I, you know, found that hard to even say out loud to get, you know, recognition for what I was doing to. Prove myself and to show my worth because motherhood wasn't going.

Gain me that that was what I had in my head, you know? And so working through all of that has, I think brought me to where I am now. And it's been hugely helpful and hugely healing and, and working out my stories, you know, that I've told myself and all of that baggage I've carried and the messages I've received and then getting to the point.

Slowly of just going actually, I don't care about that. I'm letting go of that. I, it's not mine to carry. I'm not carrying that. And it's got me, I suppose. Long-winded response.  long winded answer. No, it's got me to a place of both. I think acceptance that I, for me, I do want to be independent of my children and work.

And, and have that fulfillment in my life. I want to be creative outside of creativity with my children. I want to earn money. And I want to create in the world. And I want to work as an acupuncturist. I want to work with mothers. I want to write, and none of those things are with. Two children beside me at the same time.

I really want to, I, I, but none of those things for me anymore, feel Like I have to get to the top of everything and to be the best at everything. And they don't have to happen, you know, yesterday there's a, a give and a softness around that, that because they're coming from something that I truly want to do.

And I'm running my businesses in a far more feminine way. Whereas before it was a very masculine energy, I was applying to it. And around my children and my mothering, it's become more important to me in a way that is really deep, you know, and I feel I'm able, not all the time , but to be far more present and, you know With them and actually know how truly valuable that is.

Not that I'm on time. Cause I'm never on time to pick them up, but, you know, , but just that I'm actually there for them and that I, you know I'm present with them. And so I guess somebody looking in it might not actually look that different in a way. But there is a softness and a give to both. And I think that it comes from.

Me being an awful lot, kinder to myself and choosing things because they're truly important to me. Rather than shoulds, it's doing a lot of shoulds, you know in the energy that I applied to things. So yeah, I guess that's. Where I'm at at the moment and it might change tomorrow, you know? And I'm quite happy with that.

I'm quite happy with the, the flexibility of it too, cuz I, I feel I have a, a better sense of the core. Mm.

I love that Layla. Thank you. And this is what this is all about. And that's why I, love having guests on to talk about what motherhood looks like for now. And, and when I say now thriving in motherhood, because as you said, looking at looking from the outside, it might look like a traditional  way, but actually this is how it feels to you the way that it feels really different to you, the softness and the give.

And, love how you explained that because it is those sometimes small nuances, but actually they make such a huge, huge difference to, to how do you feel about everything in your life? I always talking about motherhood and beyond. I want mothers to thrive in motherhood.

And beyond. And you describe that so beautifully and two words that you brought up there that are so important on this journey of being a mother is, forgiveness and kindness, and two things that we very, very often aren't taught how to, to be that way with ourselves. And it's often quite hard to find for ourselves.

So it was lovely that you brought that in, and that was two of the things that really enabled you. To move towards where you want to be. And exactly you say it's always a work in progress, isn't it? And but how important that your work is outside of your, your mothering, but it's kind of fluid.

 that was really beautiful. So. If  there was the old Leila standing in front of you, that Leila who had just had her baby come out of the NICU, who was racing around doing all the things, doing the vegetable patch, painting, her daughter's bedroom. And if she was standing in front of you now, what would you like to say to her?

Wow. I, it it's a funny way to answer it, but I, I have what I would, there was a moment. I went to a therapist about a year after my baby was born, because I was just Yeah, all the things I described very wind up, and I'd never, never seen a therapist before. Never done anything like that. And a couple of sessions in she I'm so grateful to her for this, but I described to her a very the, the moment with the vegetable patch, the story that I was as an aside, I described this story to her of, I had.

Decided I had ordered three tons of manure. This is three months after my baby was born. And I had single handedly delivered that across my garden with  the wheelbarrow with my newborn baby strapped to my chest in February. And I had just mentioned it as an aside to her as some, I can't remember why. And she stopped me.

And. She looked at me and she had tears in her eyes, which I dunno if you're not supposed to do that as a therapist or not, but she  had such huge compassion and kindness in her face and I'll never forget it. And these tears in her eyes, and she said, I would love to take, makes me quiet and thinking about it now, but I would love to take that Layla by the hand and bring her up to bed and tuck her in.

And rub her head and tell her it's gonna be okay, here's a cup of tea, take a deep breath and hold my hand. And yeah, we were both in bits and I'm in bits again, I've been telling it, but that is what I needed, you know, a year on to, to begin to heal. And it was that kindness and seeing that. That I wasn't able to reflect to myself at the time.

And I think that's the energy I would send back to that Layla again. And yeah, so grateful to her for, for having done that, cuz it enabled me to, to then begin to reflect that. That way of seeing myself that I didn't see at all. I just saw someone who was failing, cuz I wasn't, I'd only managed two tons and not three tons of manure  oh Layla.

Oh, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That's you know, it's, it's a very clear, clear Example of it, but yeah, so that's what I would like to tell her is, is just to reflect that kindness back. And yeah, the nourishment and compassion for herself that she didn't really have the time. Wow. I love that. it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you.

There's just so much gold in there and just so much wisdom and, and I'm so glad that you came on to, to share it with the listeners. I know that's going to resonate with  so many mothers and I hope that it helps so many mothers. And I'd like you just to let us know where we can find you I'll pop some details in the show notes as well, but just let us know where we can find you online.

Sure. So my on Instagram NuaNua is the name of my business. The handle is @nuanuaonline for, for Instagram and Facebook, but Instagram's really where I hang out. for, for Instagram and Facebook, but Instagram's really where I hang out. And my website's Nuanua.com. Thank you. Thank you ever so much, Layla. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much, Sam.